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Här följer människors erfarenheter och synpunkter på Grumman, Folbot mm:
Åsikter om Grumman, från www.paddling.net:
Review:
13 ft
I bought this canoe, with the intention on using it primary for fishing. When traveling solo with a very small amount of gear along. I will position myself in the bow seat, facing the stern. This has worked out extremely well for me. I find the Canoe to handle like a dream from this position. I have also used it in the BWCA on short solo trips. I paddled from the stern with my gear positioned towards the front, in the traditional style. It worked out well. This canoe is very stable, but you do sacrifice some speed for the added stability. Weighing in at 50 lbs. makes it easy to handle. All in all a great canoe.
Rating: 10 of 10
15 ft
I have been buying, restoring and reselling canoes for the last ten years and by far the Grumman brand canoes are the best constructed boat on the market.
I have had at least 100 Grumman’s of all different years and sizes and have never had one leak they are all hand crafted to this date. I live 45 minutes from the factory in Marathon NY and have visited them on many occasions the workers are very friendly and helpful.
I also have six Grumman lateen sail rigs that have never been used. I am dying to try one out, but lack of sailing knowledge is holding me back, but maybe someday...
Rating: 10 of 10
Bought a used Gruman 20 years ago loved it it never failed me Ever!! Had to get rid of it from divorce no place to store it. Gave it to my friend and he and his grandson still uses it. Want to get another soon.
Rating: 10 of 10
I have a 1949 Grumman Sport Boat. It is a fantastic boat for both fishing and waterfowl hunting. A great performer with both oars and outboard. I currently use a Nissan 3.5 HP 4 stroke outboard and it will get the canoe up on plane with two full grown men. It is a tough and durable boat, perfect for the sportsman. I can also get it in and out of the bed of my pick-up truck by myself. A real plus! I highly recommend the Grumman Sports Boat for the sportsman.
Rating: 10 of 10
I had used Grumman canoes many times while I was growing up. The first one I purchased I noticed at a marine store. It was obviously used and upon inquiry, was informed I could purchase it for $200.00.... SOLD!!! This is the 15' model with a motor transom. I use a 40lb trolling motor on it, and take it fishing, wildlife watching, exploring, etc....
The second Grumman I own I found for sale in a local paper. I went and looked at it and immediately recognized it as a sailing canoe. It has all the mounts and holes neccessary for the sailing rig... I just don't have one. Price on this canoe... $200.00.
I won't part with either of them as the kids get good use out of them. I am in search of someone who has the sailing rig and can make me some measurements so I might build a rig. I know it should be simple, I would just like to get it as close to original as possible...
Rating: 10 of 10
I used to be a canoe guide in Canada in the 1970's. We used 15 foot and 17-foot Grummans and Aero-Craft aluminum canoes. The 17 -foot Grumman was the superior craft for numerous reasons. It tracked well on big lakes thanks to the keel. But it was a decent river canoe as well. Amazingly, the 17 foot Grumman weighs only 75 lbs. Flip it over onto your shoulders and the broad thwarts are quite comfortable even without a yoke. And it is PERFECTLY balanced for portaging. The equivalent Aero-craft was 95 pounds (a decent boat but a pig to portage). Based on my recollections, I just bought a 1974, Grumman 17 footer from a lady in Ann Arbor who kissed it goodbye. She had never swamped it in the 32 years she owned it. It was in mint condition and it reminded me why I loved this boat. I've seen these canoes get destroyed by going over waterfalls but the average smashup into a rock in a moderate rapids will only leave a dent and a scrape. An amazinly sea-worthy craft. The 17 footer holds three people AND cargo and still has a decent amount of freeboard. The extra two feet adds a compartment, more cargo capacity, and makes it a more stable craft in big lakes. Aluminum seats won't break out when people put their knees on the seats like cane or web seats. A classic machine. Can't recommend it highly enough.
Rating: 10 of 10
My husband has owned his lightweight 15' Grumman for 25 years. Three years ago we were doing a trip on the north shore of Superior when bad weather hit. It usually doesn't last more than 3 days but after 7 days and running out of food we decided we had to do something. We set out to round a point that would lead us to a coastal trail. We could hike 6 miles to the car from there. We knew there were whitecaps but it was only once we were out in 10 foot waves and couldn't turn back that we knew how bad it was. We thought we were goners. It was Sept. - cold water, jagged rocks. But my husbands paddling skills are 'superior'. That and our bathtub of a canoe saved our lives. He’d like to get a swifter canoe but we'll never get rid of the Grumman. I won't let him.
Rating: 10 of 10
Took my six year old son fishing last night in one of these. My father-in-laws built in about 1959. It shows its age from years of heavy use fishing and camping but still paddles as nicely as the day it was made. With the little guy in front I turn the boat around backwards and off we go balanced perfectly. I have one of these in my garage. I let my father-in-law talk me into this one over one of the prettier canoes. I was planning on selling this boat as it doesn't get used all that much. No way! Tracks best with 2 paddlers but that may be partly my fault. Grumman used to call this the "last canoe you'll ever own. No question.
Rating: 10 of 10
Best all around canoe I have ever used. No it's not the fastest canoe, nor is it the slowest. Its other traits more then make up for that. It is seaworthy, nearly indestructible, can carry a huge load (I have probably exceeded the rated capacity many times but never felt unsafe) and easy to maintain (If you are real picky a coat of Turtle wax after the spring rinse off keeps her shiny and I think makes her a little faster).
The lanteen rig is fun but sailing performance is admittedly not good. The outboard motor mount with a 2hp engine is a great help getting gear to a camp site. Then pull it off for some fun paddling.
Mine is a handy down from my parents who bought it in 1973. A few minor dings from years of hard use but otherwise in perfect shape. These boats will last. You can't beat them.
Rating: 10 of 10
I am a hunting guide in Alaska and have 10 Grumman canoes that I and my guides use during along the rivers in my hunting area during the moose season. Four of these canoes are the 15'sportboat model (the others are the 19' freighters). I can't imagine a more practical, durable, or efficient work canoe. I routinely haul more than a 1000 lbs of moose and camp gear using 15 horse Evinrudes along more than 70 miles of sometimes shallow rivers (with the aid of a lift). Great Canoes!
Rating: 10 of 10
I was bound and determined to buy a canoe this spring. I performed an extensive investigation into the variety of makes and models on the market today. I tried out several plastic, royalex, and aluminum canoes. I was certainly attracted to the sexy finishes and exotic materials used in modern canoes. While performing this investigation I also had to fully analyze what it was I was looking for in a canoe which as I understand it, is one of the key mistakes people make when buying a canoe. A fellow thinks he wants a canoe for whitewater but really the primary use is slow river and flatwater which by the way, is exactly what I needed to find.
While sorting through the many canoes, I wasn't concerned with price but rather selecting the most appropriate canoe for our uses. I kept coming back to the aluminum canoe based on its durability, design and overall outstanding performance characteristics. I visited many rental sites to find they either use aluminum or use plastic and if using plastic, they're thinking of going back to aluminum. I do know that those rental shops that use aluminum, have had their inventory for many, many years.
To make a long story short, I called the Marathon Boat company and talked to one of the managers. We talked canoes for a long time! I was very impressed with his knowledge and willingness to discuss his product and other customers’ products as well. Last week I drove 5 hours into the state of West Virginia to the only Grumman dealer in the state located in Ripley, WV. They had about five Grumman models to choose from, gave me a great price and I walked away with a sweet G1540C Lightweight 15'. It weighs in at about 59 pounds where my 15 year old son and I can easily manage it on and off my F-150 Ford with a topper/shell.
Today, we took it on its maiden voyage. What a beauty! It tracked well yet was easy to turn and we were also able to kick up some decent speed. It was quite stable with a nice blend of initial and secondary stability. Tomorrow morning we're getting up and taking it out on our favorite lake for some early morning bass fishing and some lake touring.
Based on its performance today, I would rate this canoe an 8/9 of 10. I take a point off for no portage thwart. I think this accessory should be standard issue and not an optional purchase.
Rating: 9 of 10
At age 14 one of my teachers took me to the Adirondacks. We paddled the Oswegatchie in his 15-foot Grumman. It was the beginning of a lifelong love affair with wilderness camping/paddling. My first large purchase as a young man was one of these boats (about two years of mowing dad's grass.) The canceled check from this purchase hangs on my wall today, just like the canoe hangs in my garage. It is not alone, there are five boats/kayaks in my fleet but it is the gunnels of the Grumman that meet my roof racks most often.
I have carried this canoe five miles into remote ponds. I can solo paddle this boat. I fish from this boat. I drink beer with George from this boat. My dog loves to ride in this boat. I met my wife in this boat. We have done-it in this boat! Most importantly I have introduced young 14 year olds to the sport of paddling in this boat
Rating: 10 of 10
I have been sailing my Grumman 15 (see review below), and I am happy to report that it sails very well indeed! I have the standard Grumman lanteen rig, and it moves the boat very well indeed! It is great to be able to lean back and watch (and hear) the water flowing by. It is not as tender as you might expect, and I haven't capsized it yet, even tho' I've had it out in 20 mph winds (about as much as I'd care to try). It sails about 45-50 degrees into the wind, and is about as fast as my Sunfish (although it won't plane coming off a a good wind, like the 'fish will). The only real problem I have is that the rig takes up a lot of room (and there isn't a lot of room to spare in a 15 foot canoe). All in all, a good addition. I have also added a rowing rig, and I'll post another review when I've spent more time with it.
Rating: 9 of 10
I've owned and used my 15' Grumman Standard since 1975. I've left it outside every winter in northern Michigan, and it is as good as new. Its a tough, maintainance free, easily handled canoe. I've had it on numerous river and lake camping trips and it is a good gear carrier.
Rating: 10 of 10
Last Fall I bought an older (1972) 15 foot Grumman standard model, as the five of us no longer all fit comfortably in my Grumman Eagle. The smaller model has all of the positive traits of its bigger sibling: good stability, lasts forever, has a good capacity, is easy to handle. It also has the same less desireable traits: it is slow, noisy, and is a bit too wide for easy paddling. For families, tough, it is great. My kids (ages 13, 10 and 6) can manage it just fine by themselves. Even the dog likes it. I have found that it is also very easy to paddle solo, sitting backwards in the bow seat (needs a cushion, though, because otherwise the bow thwart gets in teh way. I've got a sail kit for it, which I am anxiously waiting to try out. It motors just fine with a trolling motor, as well. Another good all-around canoe that does everything well enough.
Rating: 8 of 10
I purchased this canoe in 1985, and have used it on lakes and rivers in Texas and Tennessee as a recreational craft, just to go out paddling to see whats around the next bend. It's not particularly fast, I'd estimate it at about 70% as fast as the fastest boats in it's class. Two paddlers can move it along rather smartly, with a satisfying bow wave and steady trail of bubbles from the stern. I sometimes paddle it myself using a long double-bladed kayak paddle, sitting on a cushion amidships, and find this quite comfortable. It is slightly over 35" wide amidships, and has a flat bottom with tumblehome sides, so the gunwhales are a bit narrower and easier to reach across than would be the case if the sides were straight or flared.
The most impressive feature of aluminum canoes is the lack of maintenance required. Unlike plastics and fiberglass, outdoor storage is no problem, as the metal will not age or become brittle as a result of exposure to ultraviolet rays. I grew up seeing the riveted seams on metal canoes, so to me, the lines of rivet heads along the gunwhales and keel are traditional features which look attractive. The rivets are doubled in number below the waterline, to spread stresses and minimize the possibility of leaks, and this canoe has never leaked. Mine has the "lake" keel, so wouldn't handle well in white water, although Grumman used to offer the option of the "shoe" keel, which allowed better maneuverability. The lake keel extends down perhaps 1/2" for most of the length of the bottom, with a shallow taper to prevent it snagging weeds, etc. It does seem to help tracking in a crosswind, at the expense of slowing maneuverability somewhat.
Seats are comfortable enough, although I often kneel, especially if facing a headwind. Aluminum canoes used to rule the water, and are the primary force for the current popularity of the sport. The Grumman is a classic design, in the same sense as a Ford Mustang, or Harley Davidson.
Rating: 10 of 10
17 ft Light
My rating for Grumman canoes is off the charts. Can you really call anything else a Canoe if it doesn’t have a Grumman sticker on it?
I was practically born in a Grumman canoe and have been cabrewing, camping, fishing, gunwale pumping, hunting, motoring, paddling, picnicking, poling, portaging, racing, roof racking, sailing, submerging, surfing, swamping, trailering, towing, white watering and wooeing women, in my 1966 red 17’ double ender for the last 41 years. My parents owned and sold Grumman canoes since before I was born (1958). This was our family’s 2nd generation Grumman and it, and its blue painted twin has survived and protected my 3 brothers and all our crazy friends, my 6 children and theirs, as well as Boy Scouts through many, many adventures. It has sailed Lake Erie, Lake Huron and Lake Michigan in 6 to 8 ft swells, and dozens of smaller lakes in the blazing sun, high winds, rain, hail, lighting and even a water spout.
We have paddled more rivers in it than I can remember; the AuSable, Auglaize, Black Fork, Clear Fork, Hocking, Kokosing, Mad River, Maumee, Mohican, Muskingum, Mahoning, Ottawa, Ohio, Scioto, Olentangy, Big and Little Darby, Great Miami, Little Miami, Sturgeon, Indian River, Tuscarawas, Walhonding Rivers to name a few. Maintenance? It don’t need no stinkin maintenance! No patching, painting, or cleaning. I have no doubt that these two canoes will be passed down through the next 2, 3 or 4 generations of my family none the worse for wear.
Rating: 10 of 10
Have used two G1750CSK 1970 Grumman 17 ft whitewater models from Mississippi - Arkansas - Oklahoma - Ontario - Texas - Wyoming, in whitewater, lakes and sloughs. Running rapids, fishing, and dragging them behind 4-wheelers through swamps to use them as ferrys for cruising timber. Pretty? Nope. Stout? Yes. I wonder if these little wisps-o-nothing modern boats will stand coming off of your truck at 70 mph and flatten roadside metal posts, and only have a small dent? Or lay out in the backyard for 36 years, never inside, and still work as well as Day One? Oh, yes, learned to sail with it, too! Grumman cannot be beat, in my book.
Rating: 10 of 10
I wish there was an 11 or 12 or 15 out of 10 for this boat: Had my shiny tin-can 'clunker' for going on 30 years, run everything from Class I to IV+ in this thing, canoed and camped to above the tree-line in 4 seasons ( Was actually cutting thin river ice with the bow on the return from one trip)Beat the CRAP out of this thing season after season after season , dragging it through hellish rocky portages and it comes back for more.
Sure, it ain't some fancy Kevlar, ash-gunwaled cherry-trimmed beauty; It's a beast of burden and more beat up looking than Keith Richard's face, but like 'Keef', it keeps going and going......
Rating: 10 of 10
Have had this canoe since spring 1976 -bought it in preparation for a 100 mile trip on the Lehigh and Delaware rivers for the Bicentennial. Have since run those rivers a number of times and the local lakes as well. Sat for a long time until after my father passed away, now it is in my garage for the winter, but will see regular use again come spring. Was great in any of the rapids and on the Lehigh below White Haven never had an ounce of trouble. Still in wonderful condition, no leaks and very few dings. Guess I'm good at keeping it off the rocks!! - Or better yet, the canoe is good at staying off!! Will never get rid of this one!
Rating: 10 of 10
I love the old aluminum Grumman canoes. I learned in a 12 foot fiberglass and I have owned a lot of boats but the ones I love are the ones my scout master had. He was a wonderful scout master. When the local scout council would not give him canoes for a white water trip he went to town and purchased 10 Grumman canoes, 4 river 18 foot boats 4 lake 18 foot boats and 2 monster 20 foot WAR canoes. Every boy in the little town of Reardan WA for the last 30 years or more got to learn on those boats. We ran rivers from central Montana to California and never met anything those 10 boats could not handle. Not fast and not flashy but those old boats brought us out the bottom of every rapids and crossed any lake. In honor of the scout master who provided them and the boats themselves they both should be remembered!
Rating: 10 of 10
I've had my Grumman for 35 years and agree 100% with the favorable comments about its ruggedness and reliability. What I didn't read in the comments is how versatile this craft is. I bought the sailing kit at the same time as the canoe and it's still in very good condition. The canoe is surprisingly stable under sail and lots of fun. Also, I subsequently bought the motor mount and on hot windless days or when going upstream I mount my 3.5 hp motor and zoom along at about 1/4 throttle. A pint of gasoline takes on a very long way.
Rating: 10 of 10
Unfortunately this canoe doesn't get the respect it deserves these days. When I bought mine 30 years ago, the dealer said it would last me a lifetime and it will. I figure the 17' Grumman has about the perfect geometry for a recreational cruiser canoe. I've owned Dagger, Mad River, and Mohawk canoes, but I'll always keep the Grumman around. I don't paddle it that much these days, but when I do it's like being back with an old friend.
Rating: 10 of 10
Bought in 1978 to leave on a beach for ready access. (Glass boats die in the sun.) It has been bent around a rock and has a minor ding after straightening. Best buy of a boat I have ever made. ($150) Never a regret.
Rating: 10 of 10
Just got the one with the shoe keel (whitewater model) little heavier with the extra ribs bout overall a very nice boat. I got this rather than one of the polyethelene or royalex because of the longevity of this type of canoe (I just saw 1970's models on ebay for 4-500 dollars (half the new price) the weight is 80lbs and actually only about 5-10 lbs more than similar length royalex boat. This boat tracks well and turns pretty easily and carries 3-4 people with ease. My only complaint is the rib closest to the stern seat catches me right at my knees when I am kneeling (as I usually do ) might have to get a pad for that...
Rating: 9 of 10
I was thinking about selling my standard 17ft Grumman in our neighborhood's garage sale this weekend and did a google to see what a reasonable price would be. After reading through the comments on this site, I've decided to keep the canoe. I was thinking about replacing it with one of the new light weight boats. The comments made me realize what a great canoe it is, how many wonderful memories it has made and that a new, light weight glass canoe wasn't what I really want.
Rating: 10 of 10
This canoe is about 20 years old and given to me by an old friend who no longer can paddle. Out with the gang, the Grumman is undestructable. It's not as fast, not as pretty, could be a little more comfortable, but it's the all around best canoe I've ever owned. I often carry up to four canoes, the grumman always comes off first!
Rating: 9 of 10
I've had my Grumman for about 9 years, and it was used when I got it. It has always been stored outside (in the shade). It has bounced of of trees in swift rivers, been dragged through low water streams and paddled solo on calm lakes. The Grumman is nearly indestructible when given a minimal amount of care, and when used with a modicum of common sense. I agree with all of the positives listed below. This is a GREAT all-around canoe for the recreational canoeist. It is not the most efficient, nor most maneuverable, and it weighs a LOT, but it is a work horse. I compare it to my old '88 Subaru - not too fast, not too pretty, but reliable, fearless and refuses to die.
Rating: 8 of 10
A real workhorse ! More function than form. Hot in the sun...gathers condensation in the spring that pools in the bottom of the boat. Glare inside can be a problem but a can of spray paint fixes that. Shallow draft, steady on center, fairly seaworthy (surprisingly), and lots of room. If buying one get the shoe (whitewater) keel as it tracks just as well and won't hangup on rocks, etc. as the standard keel does. Can be a real long term investment.
Rating: 7 of 10
I've owned the Grumman Double end 17footer for about 2 years and have done over 1000 miles in river running and excursions. Mostly for recreational purposes. I am on the Gulf Coast and have also paddled in the bay, it makes an excellent fishing boat. If your by yourself, its easy on/ easy off the top of the car and with a center seat or sitting backwards in the bow seat you can get your trim set to get underway with some reasonable speed, even paddling alone. This is my first choice for an all around recreational+ canoe.
Rating: 10 of 10
I have been paddling this canoe for the last 36 years. I started with my father as a 13 year old and still have the boat as a 49 year old. It still is my all-time favorite boat. I can carry it on a 460 rod portage, and did last summer in the boundary waters with my 13 year old. I can leave it in a barn for 5 years and when I wash it out, it looks as good as it did in the '60s!
Aluminum canoes, personally owned and cared for can be wonderful long term investments. They do not need to look like the rental fleet which the Russian Army marched over. They really do last a lifetime. I have loved sail boats and kayaks and motor boats, but if there is any boat I own which my son will be sharing with his 13 year old it will be the Grumman.
Rating: 10 of 10
I am a hunting guide in Alaska and have 10 Grumman canoes that I and my guides use during along the rivers in my hunting area during the moose season. Four of these canoes are the 15'sportboat model (the others are the 19' freighters). I can't imagine a more practical, durable, or efficient work canoe. I routinely haul more than a 1000 lbs of moose and camp gear using 15 horse Evinrudes along more than 70 miles of sometimes shallow rivers (with the aid of a lift). Great Canoes!
Rating: 10 of 10
Folbot
För recensioner etc kan jag rekomendera den amerikanska sajten www.foldingkayaks.org, det finns även en del under www.folbot.com/news/all_news
Nedan följer några recensioner på engelska på Citibot och Cooper.
The Folbot Citibot
Last modified June 7, 2008
First Impressions
Like the Cooper, the Citibot, on first glance, appears to have more parts than it actually does- the use of shockcorded sub-assemblies measn that there are actually very few parts to deal with. One surprise- the sponsons are separate pieces, instead of being sewn into the hull. I thought this might have been done as a cost-saving move, but it also means that replacement and maintenance is much easier than on the older Folbot models. The original Cooper method of coaming construction has also been replaced by a one-piece coaming that attaches to the frame with a pair of classic Folbot plastic wing nuts, which greatly simplifies assembly. The biggest surprise was the new seat- with foam-filled, inflatable pads (inspired, perhaps, by the Long Haul Thermarest-based seats) this is hands-down the most comfortable seat Folbot has ever produced. 
Assembly
My first assembly took about 30 minutes, without any reference to the manual. I'd assembled the Cooper before, a nd the boats are similar, although the Citibot has a number of improvments over the early model Cooper. For my first outing with the boat, I brought along one of my testers, and asked her to assemble the boat. She'd borrowed the review Cooper twice, for extended use, so she wasn't entirely unfamiliar with the new Folbot assembly method, but it's been about eight months since she last assembled the Cooper. She refused help, saying she wanted to see if she could do it herself, without any reference to the manual, and indeed she did it as fast as I did my first time out- maybe even a little bit faster. 
The assembled boat is a good deal stiffer than the Cooper, owing to the shorter length and greater beam. At 2' shorter than the Aleut- not the fastest boat out there- I wondered how well it would paddle?
Paddling: First Outing
I'm a bit large for the Citibot, and though it could carry my weight, I thought it would be a lot more useful if I brought along a tester who was better suited to the boat. My bicycling and paddling pal Adventure Girl (as she prefers to be known for this review!) is a fit 5'9", and a skilled paddler who paddles a 16' rigid boat. For our outing, we picked a location made for the Citibot: A branch of Southeast Michigan's Rouge River, a 42 mile long river that runs through neighborhoods, parks, and even golf courses, through a dozen cities. It's pretty shallow, ranging from about 4 feet to less than a foot, and varies in width from 80 feet to perhaps a dozen feet wide. Our entry point was Riverside Park in Beverly Hills, a regular stop in our bike rides. AG launched quickly, and I followed in my Folbot Yukon.
Her first response was "this is great!" The boat seemed very responsive, and responded very quickly to turns. It wasn't at all the dog I'd worried its short length and wide beam might suggest; with an appropriately-sized paddler, actual wetted area is small, and it has a good glide. Some prospective owneres viewing the video on Folbot's site have wondered if this boat "didn't track as well" as other Folbots, but AG says the boat has good tracking- just not that running-on-rails feeling you get in older Folbots, like my Yukon. And indeed, as the river became narrower, and we had to manuver around fallen trees and shallows, the manuverability of the Citibot showed its worth.
The seat was a big hit with AG, both for the comfort and the ease of installation- it snaps on to the frame, so there are no straps to thread, no back stiffeners to fall out and get lost, none of the minor annoyances with earlier seats. Phil deserves major accolades for this piece. Incidentally, the water is about 8" deep where this photo was taken- hence the lack of PFDs on this leg of the journey!
What we thought would be a short paddle tuned into a three-hour tour as we explored different routes, made our way around obstacles, and from time to time got out of the boats to drag them through shallows. The open design of the boats made this very easy, and the Citibot's light weight was a plus for AG, who found it easy to carry the boat with one hand and her paddle with the other.
Her final opinion? This is a great boat for sheletered water. The lightness makes portages easy, and the compact size and great manuverability is ideal for rivers and creeks. She'd like to borrrow it again.
Paddling: Second Outing
This time out my paddling partner was my girlfriend, a paddler with some experience, but not a lot of advanced skills. She usually paddles my Folbot Aleut, or from the front seat of my Klepper Aerius II. She's also paddled the Long Haul Ute, her favorite boat to date. Our paddling destination was the Huron River, a favorite spot for local canoists and kayakers. Water conditions are mainly Class 1, although there are a few Class 2 rapids, as well as some long fetches where you occasionally encounter 2' waves. We didn't expect anything like that today, although we did encounter some stiff winds.
Carrying the Citibot to our put-in was a pleasant surprise for the GF, who is used to the two of us carrying the 40-lb Aleut. She's 5'2" and about 110lbs, and could easily pick up the boat and carry it unaided. Her first reaction on setting off: "This is really responsive!" She liked the way it easily moved with a few paddle strokes, and how quickly it turned. Despite having most of her paddling experience in straight-tracking boats like the Aleut, she had no trouble keeping it on a straight track. It did wobble a bit back and forth with each stroke, but after an hour in the boat she was tracking it as straight as she did the Aleut. As for the seat: "Best kayak seat ever."
We paddled two miles upstream into a mild current and occasional custing winds, and then two miles back downstream, taking our time, exploring the shore and watching fish and birds. Halfway back, she asked me how much it cost. A little further, she asked how long I could keep it. I may have to hide it from her.
Summary
I'll be paddling the Citibot in other waters, and with other paddlers over the coming weeks (and maybe months), but my overall impression is that Phil has done an excellent job in producing a compact, carry-it-everywhere boat. It's fun, light, easy to assemble and easy to paddle, with plenty of stability for beginnners. Yet it's still very responsive, at least with a lighter paddler. (Rated load is 210 lbs, but I suspect it would be better for 160lb and down paddlers.)
Like all Folbots, it's a good value, and an excellent first choice for the mall to medium sized paddler planning on paddling in sheltered waters- though a really skilled lightweight paddler could probably get away with taking it out in more difficult conditions. It's the best Folbot yet for exploring small rivers, ponds and creeks. If you're considering the Aleut, and sailing isn't in your plans, I think you should give serious consideration to the Citibot.
'
The Folbot Citibot
by desertPaddler
I've been wanting to buy a folder for my kids for more than a year now and after a lot of reading my shortlist was a Pakboat Puffin Sport and Nautiraid's gorgeous little Raid 1 325. However, the boat would need to be more than a 'learner' boat for my boys but also for me to take on business trips. I travel a lot to places like Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar and the hotels I stay in are inevitabely close to the sea, so a lightweight boat for a quick post-work-stress-buster paddle is desirable. Thus travelability (ie: lightweight) was a prime consideration. In email conversations with Dave AvRutick soon after the takeover of Folbot (heck, sounds like a one of those hostile M&As from the 1980s) I mentioned that I was looking for a small folder but, either he or Phil were keeping things under wraps, there was no mention of anything in the pipeline and I never even considered looking at Folbot.
Then I read about the Citibot, followed by a long session of email-tennis with Dave, and hummed and haahed about choosing the Puffin Sport or the new Citibot. The Puffin's size and weight had it at a slight advantage, but my blood ties with Folbot (we're a Folbot family with a Kodiak, Cooper and a GII) finally tipped my favour to the Citi. The clincher was reading about Dubside using it for a rolling demonstration, I knew I was getting a well built boat. I don't live in the US, so when ordering things I take into account the hassle and cost of having to return faulty items, also I have to buy most things sight unseen. It takes a lot of trust and so far Folbot has been trustworthy. I ordered one and fidgeted for the next few weeks waiting for it to arrive.
The First Assembly:
I took my son to the beach, pulled the Folbot box from the rear of the car, said 'Surprise' and then we started the first assembly. The frame is very simple: A keel, 4 longerons, 3 ribs, 2 deck struts, a one-piece gunwale and a stern/tensioner assembly. Despite there not being many pieces the first assembly took about half an hour with lots of stops to read the instructions. The instruction leaflet was good, or at least a lot better than those that came with my other boats, with a lot of photos. I like lots of photos. The process is fairly straightforward: the bow and keel is one unit with shock corded pieces that snap together, there are two lower longerons and two upper longerons that easily clip to flanges on the bow and are held in place by a short piece of tubing. The same mechanism is used on the Cooper. There are only three cross-ribs and ours were mis-numbered, number one and two had the wrong stickers on, fortunately I have assembled my fair share of Folbots and realised something was wrong immediately. I just hope newbies don't try putting rib No1 where No2 should be or vice versa, they're very different in size (A slip of paper that comes with the boat gives who assembled and who checked each piece, so we know who you are!) My other boats also have all the stickers down one side so that all are visible from the same end, this aids in making sure the ribs are facing the correct direction, our stickers were not the same and so I had to undo the rear rib and re-fix it in place. Ensuring that the ribs face the right direction is critical with the citibot due to the high curvature of the sides, the longerons are even curved to cater for this.
Most of the moon clips holding the ribs to the longerons are backed up with a velcro strap, this made it all very sturdy. Putting the one-piece gunwale in place was fiddly but not difficult, you just need to be careful because it's so easy to drop the star-knobs in the sand. Unlike any other kayak I own the sponsons on the citibot are not sewn into the skin, instead they're attached to the upper longerons with velcro. Take careful note in the instructions on which way the inflation tubes must face, I didn't and learnt too late that I had one of the sponsons back to front and upside down. making inflation near impossible. The sponsons were a lot longer than the actual longeron to which they attach, I'm not sure if this is meant to be so or if it's a shop mistake, but I had a roughly 6" overhang at the rear on both sponsons.
The sponsons are not a plain open 'sausage', instead it is split lengthways in two by a welded seam running down the centreline, like two 'sausages' joined side-by-side. This seam has gaps in it to allow air to move from one side to the other so that the whole unit is inflated evenly. Combined with the fact that the sponsons are 'pinched' between the deck and longeron means that there is a technique to inflating them because you need to ensure that the air equalizes itself across the tubes. The trick is to blow steadily, then block of the tube with a finger and wait a few seconds before the next huff as the air finds its way through the sponson.
Once assembled and with the sponsons attached the frame is inserted into the skin from the rear. I struggled a bit with this, mainly because (I think) the hull material is quite 'grippy' and so doesn't slide easily along the aluminium. I had to regularly shake and tug from the deck opening to get it seated properly. The hull is the same material as my Kodiak, but not as heavy as the GII or as light as the Cooper (we have a very early Cooper with the lightweight hull.)
You also need to check that the velcro at the deck opening doesn't grip to the gunwale otherwise you'll have a hernia trying to get the frame in. The cockpit coaming is very unusual, a sleeve running the circumference of the cockpit opening with a two piece plastic pipe running inside it, one piece for the port side and one for starboard. With the skin in place you push the pipes into the sleeve so that they meet at the front then, at the rear, insert one end into a collar on the other so the pipes form a loop, forming a rigid but flexible coaming. Simple but quite effective. My only gripe was that the pipes tend to pull from the sleeve during assembly and are not easy to push back, what is needed is a simple mechanism to hold the pipes into the ends of the sleeves (Mr Phil?)
The stern is the same screw tensioner as found on the Cooper, but with a better systems for fixing to the longerons using endcaps rather than the Cooper's keyed bolt-thingys. I had to turn the screw fairly far to remove all folds from the skin. Those who own a Cooper will know that the rear deck longerons have a pipe that you pull out to support the deck. The Citibot is similar but a bit more sophisticated. The rear support pipes slide into the longerons and then clip to flanges on the stern, making things a lot more rigid.
The last thing to go in is the seat, a very clever design that has a solid frame that clips to the floor and has a cross-beam that fits under the gunwale, giving it extra support. An inflatable cushion fits onto the seat and you can vary the amount of air to your personal butt-comfort level. When not in the kayak the seat can fold flat for easy packing.
The First Paddle:
We always name our kayaks, so it was up to my son to name his. In the true spirit of an indestructable 10 year old he dubbed it 'Kamikaze', I hope that's more of the 'divine wind' then a harbinger of throwing himself at the biggest waves. The Citibot was light enough for him to pick it up and manhandle it the few yards to the waterline. The sea was very choppy with some 1 to 2 foot shore breakers, so I helped him into his new boat and he took off across the Persian Gulf.
He was 50 yards offshore before I realized that he had no PFD ... ooops! Despite the sea's roughness the little boat never looked overwhelmed and my son was the picture of calm and confidence, I know it's not billed as an ocean going boat but not once did I think it couldn't handle the conditions. This was when I realised that the broad beam I'd grouched about had come into it's own, ensuring a very stable ride for my offspring. The beam meant he had to paddle with a high stroke but it did not seem to impede him, he almost surfed a few small waves while his Mom and I watched anxiously but proudly from the shore. After paddling back and forth a few times he came in and neatly rode it up the beach, grinning widely. 
I decided to have a go, I'm not a big guy in height but pack a solid 98 kilograms (about 215 pounds,) so was wondering if I'd wreck our new purchase on its 1st day. Getting in required me to sit on the rear deck with straight legs and slide into the seat. Then it struck me! No way was this a Folbot!! The seat was waaay too comfortable, I could easily spend a day in this one! The seat is the single best thing from Folbot in ages. I'd inflated it a bit too much, though, which raised my centre-of-gravity quite a lot and upping the 'tippy' factor a bit. I paddled out into the cat's paws and was very impressed with the stability of the boat, despite the short hull length it tracked fine, not as good as the Kodiak or Cooper, but adequately. It cut through the waves rather than over them, probably due to my personal ballast capabilities than anything else, but very little water got inside and despite my earlier concerns it handled my bodyweight with aplomb. It was fun to paddle and a lot more snug fitting than the Kodiak or Cooper around my feet, however I would strongly recommend getting the extra foot braces, we didn't and so there was nothing to 'lock' my feet against.
All in all I was very happy with the purchase, and my son's grin told me he was also.
I've taken it out subsequently, on much calmer water, and it was great. I probably would not use it for extended paddles of a few hours but think it would be a great boat for knocking about in lakes, rivers and sheltered coastal areas. Assembly times are now down to 10 minutes or so (including the usual mistake compensation and beverage break.)
Concluding Remarks:
It's heavier than a Puffin Sport, but I believe it's sturdier. Despite it not being touted for offshore use I trust Folbot's enough that I have no qualms in letting my son paddle in even moderate chop (but sticking fairly close to shore.) Although I see the benefits of the broad beam I still think that dropping the beam 8 - 10 inches would make it great for kids and still suitable for smaller adults, and it would shave a few more pounds off the weight. But considering that Folbot's line-up is really substantial now (heck, it's eight boats) I can't see a dedicated kids boat seeing as the citibot is darn close.
All things considered it was a great choice for my son and I know that it will pass on to his brother when he's old enough. I hope this is the start of a long relationship with the ocean and of many paddles together.
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
The Folbot Cooper
Last modified July 4, 2005
First Impressions
My first thoughts on opening the Cooper's bag were "boy, this boat sure doesn't weigh much" and "that's an awfull lot of frame pieces!" The boat certainly doesn't weigh much- Folbot advertises it as weighing 31.5 lbs- but the frame isn't anywhere as complicated as it appears. What looked like a great many bundles of tubing was in fact just a handful of shock corded assemblies. The bulk of the frame consists of just five parts- four longerons and a bow assembly. The design reminds me a little of Feathercraft's frame design, but the Cooper goes together much faster than any Feathercraft. On my first outing with the boat, I assembled both the Cooper and my Aleut in about 45 minutes, although to be truthful, my girlfriend was sorting the Aleut parts and doing some of the assembly. Nevertheless, I think with very little practice I could assemble the Cooper in well under 20 minutes.
Assembly
Assembling the main frame and inserting it into the hull can be done in under 10 minutes with practice, if you have all your parts at hand. You just shake out the shock corded assemblies, clip the longerons into the bow assembly, clip the ribs onto the longerons, slide in the stern assembly, and slide it into the hull. That's it. The longerons are color coded, and require no force or juggling of multiple pieces. In many ways, this is the easiest to assemble Folbot yet, requiring no leaning or pushing or holding the frame apart as you try to pop in that middle frame. Owing to the tensioning mechansism in the stern assembly, everything just slips together.
 Attaching the coaming takes about as much time as does assembling and inserting the frame, and although it's very different from any other Folbot, Phil has used the same connectors he used in earlier boats- the inner coaming is held in place with the same T-bolts used to attach coamings to ribs in other Folbots, and is held fore-and-aft with the same clips used to attach ribs to deck bars in other Folbots. The outer coaming is held in place by a novel system that is both solid and easy to attach. The hull attaches to the inner coaming via velcro flaps, and to the outer coaming via a flap that wraps around the outer coaming and tensions via a pull cord secured by a tiny cam cleat. Simple, easy and doesn't require any muscle to get parts into alignment.
Once assembled, the boat is tight but still very flexible- much more so than any other folder I've paddled. I was curious to see if this would affect handling.
Paddling
The Cooper was a snug- though not tight- fit for my 6'2" 230lb frame. Foot room was a bit tight, with my bare size 11.5 feet poking into the deck unless I canted my feet to the side. This wasn't at all uncomfortable, but those with size 11 and larger feet should be advised that things can get a bit tight under the foredeck- particularly for those with longer legs.
I first got in with sandles on, and quickly removed them; the heels became caught on one of the frames, which made for a moment of panic as I carefully back-paddled into the shallows where I could unhook myself without worrying about capsizing. I got out and changed into neoprene booties.
It's far too easy to get your sandles hooked under the tubular frames of this boat and other Folbots, trapping you inside with potentially fatal results. I strongly recommend you paddle this boat- and just about any folder, really- in either neoprene booties or barefoot. The seat was like that of any other current Folbot, which is to say it's reasonably comfortable and tends to flop forward when you try to get in- more of a problem in this boat than in other Folbots because of the smaller cockpit. Note to Phil- this boat really deserves a better seat, with lumbar support and a back that stays in place.
Once underway, I was very pleased with the handling of the Cooper. It accelerates easily, tracks well, and turns without difficulty. It doesn't respond quickly to leaning, but putting it on edge does help turn initiation. Once moving, the Cooper glides along with very little resistence. If you're used to other Folbots, you'll be amazed how easily this one paddles. As you might expect from the fine bow entry, the Cooper leaves very little bow wake. Paddling next to the Aleut, it was interesting to see how much more the Aleut disturbed the water, even with a 120 lb paddler in it. I didn't use the standard paddle that came with the review boat, instead using my two favorite paddles for narrow boats, the Feathercraft Klatwa, and the Werner Arctic Wind, a paddle that is sadly out of production (see the Paddles section). Both paddles worked well with the Cooper, the Klatwa being my favorite. If you decide to get a Cooper, I'd recommend a narrow, Greenland style paddle over the usual wide-bladed paddle. Wide paddles owe their design to European river touring and whitwater boating, where you need to generate lots of torque. The Cooper is designed for cruising, and the Greenland style paddle is optimized for comfort and efficiency on long trips.
I didn't detect any tendancy whatsoever to windcock in the mild (10-12mph) winds we encountered, and felt no need to deploy the rudder; I don't think you ever need the rudder on this boat unless you encountered the kinds of strong currents and high winds that would keep me off the water, or you chose to sail the Cooper. (I haven't read any reports from anyone sailing the Cooper yet, but I imagine it would be a fast boat under sail, though owing to its length it might need a little help in tacking.)
My review boat didn't come with a spray deck- an option I would also strongly recommend to prospective buyers. Using the Klatwa, I had water running into the cockpit on almost every stroke. Not having a spray deck I was also inclined to not test secondary stability too much; I didn't want to spend an hour pumping water out of the boat if I went too far. I didn't use the supplied vinyl float bags, preferring instead to use a pair of my own much larger nylon bags that would displace far more water if need be. (I do wish Folbot would offer larger float bags as an option.) Prospective purchasers are encouraged to get their own bags.
I later loaned the boat to my neighbor and paddling pal Joanne, who took it with her on a two-week trip to Michigan's upper peninsula. She's a long-time hardshell kayaker, but had never paddled a folder except for one day in my Aleut. She's quite tall and slender, and the boat was a great fit for her; I suspect the newer Kiawah would be even better. We did a practice assembly in my back yard, and off she went with the boat and a sheet of instructions.
That's a photo of it above, taken on her trip. Her verdict? She loved it. Faster than her hardshell, and the portability really attracted her. She drives company cars and so can't put a rack on her cars; folders are a great option for her. She's thinking of buying her own now.
Summary
My overall impression? This is a fun, fast boat, perfect for someone who wants the value and support you get from Folbot, but is looking for a higher performance boat than the typical wide, stable Folbots. It's not an expedition boat- although I can imagine a version with thicker wall tubing and a few other changes- but unless you're planning on open sea crossing and fighting through surf, it's probably as strong as you'll ever need. At under 32 lbs, I can see the Cooper as a great boat for the kind of train and paddle touring that Bill Longyard writes about. Comparing it to the Feathercraft K-1, the closest boat to it performance wise, I'd say it delivers 80% of the K-1's performance at less than half the cost. It's not perfect; the seat, while fine for the wider Folbots, isn't up to a fast cruiser like the Cooper. It would be nice to see some sort of padding- perhaps inflatable- that a paddler could brace against for rolling. I'd like to see more deck bungees and D-rings- perhaps as an option?- so one could carrying more safety gear on deck- pump, spare paddle, paddle float, compass, etc. But for what it is, the Cooper is a very good value.
Addendum: I tested the boat with the original urethane hull. A number of early purchasers complained that the hull wasn't abraision resistant enough, and so Phil quickly came up with a slightly heavier, but much tougher replacement using the new Hypalon material that Folbot's been using for the last few years. Phil has promised me a new hull this spring, and when it comes I'll compare it to the original. I also hope to have more paddling reports from other members of my team of testers, the Southeast Michigan Folding Kayak Commandos.
The Folbot Cooper
Last modified May 21, 2007
Folbot Cooper Review - Joerg Glaus
21 May 2007
Purchase Experience
I did a lot of research and reading of forum posts before finally settling on this kayak. My final choice was strongly influenced by the many positive reviews of this boat and all the good comments about dealing with the folks at Folbot. I was not disappointed. The whole purchase experience was easy and the boat arrived in about two weeks, as promised. Materials are top-notch and craftsmanship of all components was faultless and exceeded my expectations.
Assembly
First assembly was completed without any problems and took about an hour, but that included the time to read the instructions and to unpack and remove the shipping wrapping from all of the components. Instructions are straight forward and easy to follow. Subsequent assemblies are now taking about 25-30 minutes and disassembly can be completed in 10-15 minutes, which includes wiping the skin dry and folding it properly so it all fits back into the bag. With the Cooper.s unique skin tensioning system, assembly requires no physical straining whatsoever. I use a closed-cell foam pad in the bottom of the cockpit to insulate the floor and I let the pad run up over the seat for additional padding. This makes for a very comfortable cockpit.
On the Water
For a kayak with only 24 in. beam this boat is very stable . easily stable enough for relaxing, photography, wild-life watching, etc. The long cockpit allows easy entry and exit (I.m 6. and 185 lbs) and even with the float bags installed there is still lots of storage both forward and aft. The Cooper accelerates very quickly, tracks absolutely straight and will cruise comfortably at 6-7 kmh (3.5-4.2 mph) with very little paddling effort. With modest effort it will sprint to 9 kmh (5.4 mph) . I have not felt the need to go any faster. I have had it out in 30 kmh (18 mph) winds and it took the waves very well and exhibited negligible weathercocking. Even in those conditions it still felt very stable and secure. I did not order the optional rudder for mine and I have not felt the need for it. This boat is a true joy to paddle! I use a .Seals. partial spraydeck (size 2.5 fits perfectly) and it keeps the cockpit completely dry, even when waves break over the bow. I find it more comfortable than a full skirt (but of course it would not be suitable for rolling).
Improvements over previous models
The current version includes several modifications over earlier models: Revised stern assembly . the gunwale longerons now include sliding extensions so that they connect to the stern piece same as at the bow. Velcro straps on critical frame positions to hold longerons in place and prevent them from popping out of the half-moon clips. Revised seat with rigid, contoured seat pad and stiffeners in the backrest. All of these combine to provide a stiffer frame structure. Once the frame is properly tensioned in the skin and the sponsons are inflated, the result is a very stiff and rigid hull.
Summary
The Cooper is well designed, beautiful and sleek. It is a stable, fast, fun-to-paddle boat and is guaranteed to put a smile on your face!
I have owned Grumman 13', 15' and 17' standard & lightweight canoes since 1972 (now, also the solo 12'9" for fishing) because they give the safest and best all around service for fishing, camping and hunting. A big plus is they have a keel which ensures predictable handling in stiff winds, which is definitely not true of modern composite canoes no matter what they advertise about their "minimal bow/stern rockers". Noise can be subdued with some split hose on the Gunwales and a little carpet or pad on the bottom. I have also owned finely made composite cruisers from well respected manufacturers so I understand that for the aesthetic-minded, Grumman canoes won't get you to the zen level of paddling. But their practical attributes outweigh zen for most realistic outdoor experiences.
Rating: 8 of 10 |
